Your experience/opinion switching from D10 to U12

[Michael Lester]

I'm on the hunt for a new-to-me pedal steel having sold my D10.

I'm curious about how difficult it was for any of you who have switched to U12?

Glancing through the Set Lists of our band, I use C6 60% vs E9. We play a lot of western swing and quite a few jazz oriented songs.

Does U12 make the changes between tunings as easy as it seems?

Does your 'muscle memory' from your D10 still work? Or, did you have to re-learn everything?

What about pedals? Steep learning curve or?

I could use some guidance....thanks!

[Dave Grafe]

With a lot of work you can do a lot of things on a UNI guitar that you can do on a D10, but there are importantbits missing, and the extra cross-shaft torque can make a sweet guitar play like a spongy tank, especially if it has no raise-helper springs or rod supports. I play a lot of client's U12 guitars but haven't found any advantage to them that makes we want to ditch the D10 format, rather it reinforces my commitment to it.

The E9 and C6 necks are not only tuned differently, they represent entirely different ways of approaching musicality. While there are plenty of valid arguments for the U12 it would be a frustrating step backwards for me.

[Jerry Overstreet]

I played D10s for about 10 yrs. before buying my first Universal. It was a 14 string Sierra keyless. I really didn't have much trouble switching over.

My C6 playing on the D10 was just very basic so that might have made the transition easier.

I played Unis 12s and 14s for about another 6 or 7 yrs. before owning another D10. I kept guitars with both tunings but tuned the D10 rear neck to B and found it pretty simple to switch back and forth.

Biggest difference is the string grips and the lack of an open D string with the conventional E9/B6 tuning.

I would argue with those that shun an Eb locking lever because it frees up your body and your mind from the distraction of holding in a lever all the time and play long sessions in the 6th mode. You can still unlock it, come and go for short runs or a completely different experience using the whole tuning, pedals and levers in a new way.

The other thing you get is the lower register in the E tuning.

All I can say is it's just different and any player with any experience and open mind can transition pretty easily and even go back and forth. It's all a mind game of mathmatics anyway.

So why do I not still play them? It is simply a matter of economics and how life goes. I played a Sierra 14 as recent as 5 yrs. ago. I needed to sell equipment just for the survival money and sold out competely. But, it really doesn't matter to me. I can play just about any configuration without too much acclimation.

[Bill McCloskey]

My experience is that it makes everything a bit more difficult to get everything on one neck. I spent a good chunk of time delving into D13 and had a E9/Bb universal for a while. Some will say (and I was one of them): treat it as one big tuning. And if you listen to Reece Anderson play, you can see that if you are willing to spend the time, know a lot of chord theory, you play some amazing things on it.

I, however, am merely a mortal. I discovered I liked having things on two necks. Each neck is approached differently and playing the same lick on both necks gives you dramatically different voicings which I like. There is also a lack of instructional material and a lack of standard when it comes to universal which means you are constantly having to translate everything in your head. I'm in the KISS camp now: keep it simple, stupid and don't make things more difficult than they are already. Paul Franklin, from what I've read, the same: that something is lost on both necks when combined into one. Reece Anderson felt differently.

[Jerry Overstreet]

You will find a variety of opinions. Everybody has a different idea of what they want or need in a guitar. The thing to do is put the D10 thought behind you for the moment and just make music on what's in front of you.

Forgot to mention one of the other issues on some guitar is as follows:

Consider to put the Uni into the 6th mode requires dropping the Es to Eb. Then, you have a pedal that lowers that string again for use as in the 6th tuning. Sometimes, the action of returning that last lower to the Eb causes it not to come back in perfect tune. It was never a big issue for me, however I've seen some comments from other players.

[Slim Heilpern]

I did about 1 year on D10 before switching to E9/B6 U12 (and I'm about 9 years in on that). I really like the U12 approach (for me) because I often use the traditional E9 pedals/levers along with the traditional C6 ones (at least the ones that will fit on my axe -- I have 7 pedals and 6 levers) within the same tune, or even phrase. So I'm one of those one-big-tuning guys (so I don't have separate levers for the B6 stuff, which can be limiting if you're used to a fully loaded D10). I made sure to put the lowered E's on RKL where it's very easy for me to leave it engaged for extended periods of time.

I was able to make the switch to U12 without too much re-learning, but I was only in my first year, so probably more difficult for a long-time player. I also changed the string arrangement on my top 3 strings (thanks to Pete Burak for the suggestion!): 1st: D#, 2nd: G#, 3rd: F#, This gives me a repeating string pattern from strings 2 through 10 which I love (so that top D#, which lowers to C# in B6 mode, is the only re-entrant string) and that also took some getting used to.

Other positive things: 8 fewer strings to tune and change, lighter guitar, wider range on a single neck.

For tuning all those changes on the one neck, I needed 4 splits.

- Slim

[Dennis Detweiler]

I played D-10 for 8 years, then bought a new 12 string MSA. At that time there was no standard universal tuning. Zane Beck had his own tuning and Reece was using Bb6 and holding a knee lever to play Eb9th. I experimented with a D9/D6 tuning, but it lacked the total 6th copedent to get where I needed to be. Then, Jeff Newman standardized it E9/B6 with 7 pedals and 4 knees. Then it all made sense to me. I switched to his tuning in 1983 and never looked back. I'm using 7 + 6 (4 left kneelevers). I have no problems with strings returning out of tune on my 1975 and 1976 lacquer finish birdseye maple bodies. A top quality built guitar with the proper mechanical adjustments should play like butter and stay in tune. I would never use a locking lever. Depending on the song, I play in and out of both tunings constantly which is the advantage of a U-12. It's an advantage for developing your own style and still be able to copy others licks and movements. I love the 9th string B to D and find uses for it in the E9th and B6th tunings. I tune my 2nd string to C# and raise it to D and D# on separate kneelevers. If you've been playing a D-10 for a few decades, I can understand how the transition to U-12 would be challenging.

[Douglas Schuch]

Dennis, I have nowhere near your experience, but here's my take on it. I started 15 years ago on a Stage One, but quickly realized I wanted to play C6/B6 as well. I was unsure what to buy, but ended up with a Zumsteel U-12 that had a more complex lock that could emulate both necks better than a standard U-12 - but not on the fly. On the fly, it was a standard U-12 along the lines of Newman. I eventually switched to D-10 and haven't looked back.

But here are the problems I ran into that you might want to ponder:

1) I am rather clumsy with my feet (I was no football/soccer star as a kid!). Trying to use the A+B pedals, then going across the whole pedal rack to get a boowah on 8 was just beyond my ability to coordinate my feet. In fact, when I moved to D10, I put pedal 5 on a mid knee-lever, so each neck has only 4 pedals for my feet to deal with.

2) I like having string 9. I tried it on a lever and it doesn't work on fast playing for me.

3) Finding locations for all the knee levers you might want that don't conflict with something else is a problem. I'd suggest deciding what you "must have" from each neck to be happy, then see if you can find a layout for those that works. I found it was just too much of a compromise on where I could put levers. I have 5 levers on each neck, and they all get used sometimes. For example, my LKL (middle C6 cluster) raises the 6th tone a 1/2 step, giving me a 7th chord in the root position of each chord - easy peasy for getting a Dom. 7th on the fly vs. moving up 3 frets and down a string group and using pedal 8. I use that lever all the time. Where would I put it on a Uni?

4) People talk about the weight. I don't think there is that much difference, particularly if it's on a double-wide body. You can easily find a D-10 that saves weight if that is an issue. I play a MSA Millennium - lighter than almost everyone's Universal, and a totally stable body, which is very important to me living in the tropics.

Having said all of that, when I hear Cowboy Eddie Long or Olli Haavisto (I think he plays Uni?) tossing in nice C6-style chords and licks into his E9 style playing, I've got to admit - done right, it sounds great!

[Michael Lester]

One thing I learned on this thread - there's a lot of really bright people on this Forum.

I've also talked to a couple of players that I know personally and their opinions ended up 50/50 for, and not.

I appreciate your comments.

Thanks!

[Dennis Detweiler]

Douglas, as to problem
(1) Initially on E9/B6, I experimented with knee levers and floor pedals in different positions to feel comfortable. I moved the boo-wah to pedal 4 position, basically sliding it over from pedal 7 to pedal 4 with the remaining floor pedals in normal position. This makes it great for rocking from pedal 4 to pedal 5 for the (1 to 4 chord change). I've moved knees around to what's comfortable to me.
(2) There are plenty of b7's on the E9th. I do the fast picking from the Bb side, so my 6th tone is readily available with the B pedal on quick note playing. The same can be said for the A pedal with F lever as the A pedal drops the 5th string down a whole step to a b7. There are lots of pockets to work single string picking if a b7 is needed.
(3) this is your B floor pedal raising the 6th to a b7 from the B6th side of the tuning. Then adding my 4 left knee cluster. My Eb lever is on RKR.
(4) I play U-12 MSA which is probably the heaviest single neck guitar. I'm currently doing a setup on a D-10 MSA, which is what I played the first 8 years. I can't believe how heavy it is compared to my single neck. I'll be 77 in a week and my back starts popping just getting this D-10 in and out of the van. It's a boat anchor. I put wheels on my U-12 case and a handle on the end, so I can move it around without getting crippled and keep from popping the barnacles off of my spine.
Cowboy Eddie Long has a style of his own and I admire how he does it.
A player has to set any guitar up to get the most out of it which requires moving the copedent around over time. When I played a D-10, I played a lot of swing on the E9th, but the 9th string got in the way of the chords I wanted. So, I jumped back and forth from the C6th to E9th to compare and it spurred my interest in the unstandardized U-12 at the time. Lots of experimenting.

[Bobby D. Jones]

Coming up on my 74th birthday, I wanted to lighten the load.
I went to 49lb 12U in 2017 after many years of MSA 60lb+ S10 E9th. I set the 12U up Jeff Newman's tuning, Since some B6 lesson material was available.
I moved the E raise and lower from left knee, To right knee. Put the E lower on RKR as in Newman's tuning. The weight of your leg helps hold the D knee lever with little muscle stress. It only took a week or so to get the knee levers in my neuro memory.

It took quite a bit more seat time to get the 6G#-8E-10B grip to 6G#-8E-9B grip in my neuro memory. Moving thumb about 5/16 inch took a lot of work and practice.

Since about all of the music in our area, Is Classic E9 country. I have not got into the B6th side of the guitar. I keep saying B6 is a winter project. But the 8E-9B/D-10G#-11E has opened another octave of the E9th tuning to explore.
George Jones' "He Stopped Loving Her Today", Now has possibilities.

[Michael Lester]

Thanks all. Considerable thought went into each of your responses.

It seems there is a steep learning curve in the switch. I don't have that much brain power.

I have purchased a Mullen Royal Precision D10 8/6 from Johnny Boyd. Expected delivery soon.

Thank you for your insights.

[Bill McCloskey]

The RP's are wonderful instruments and Johnny is a great person to deal with. I'm sure you will be very happy with your choice.

[Jerry Overstreet]

Congratulations on purchasing a fine guitar. Lots of music in that D10 Mullen.

I'm sorry you feel the Uni is above your ability though. I don't believe the curve is as big a hill to climb as you might think.
Good Luck! Happy Steelin'!

[J D Sauser]

I've switched back and forth several times. Each time, convinced "that" was "it".
We seen and heard Jeff Newman play seamlessly, to the point most couldn't tell anymore which "side" he was playing on his U12, which had a very basic E9th/B6th setup.
Likewise, many would have a hard time to tell thru all tunes which "side" of his Bb6th/Eb9th tuning played on throughout tunes on his "The Universal Way" gospel album... they all played seamlessly and "thought" of it as ONE big tuning/setup... and it IS as it all relates.

Most "heavy" C6th players playing D10's will argue that the "B6th" end is too basic. True! Just like BE's C6th was. Ha!
BUT, I also have to say that Maurice's B6th based Universal had only very minimal "Eb9th" changes but more elaborate Bb6th changes. YET, at the 2000 Dallas SG show, he played with a band he brought in and left some very Jazz capable Nashville Pros, SPELLBOUND... and that day he was playing his quite "standard" E9th/B6th U. (the black with green apron "old" MSA). Most thought he was playing his Bb6h "chord generator (but that was the blonde with reddish brown apron MSA).

The thing, even some quite capable C6th and pretty much all beginner to intermediate C6th players overlook is chord substitution which multiplies the applications of each pedal, lever and their combinations.

My main issue with the universal concept is tuning "culture". I still think that E9th can be tuned JI (Just Intonation), while pedaled C6th cannot and thus needs ET (Equal Temperament) or near that. There are too many stacks of major thirds or minor thirds occurring, to many tritones possible and too many chords built off another chord's Major third becoming the new root. IF that previous Major third is tuned 11 cents flat as it would in JI... the next chord built on it by means of some change(s) will be out of whack... E9th's E-to-F raise using the A-pedaled JI-flattened M3rd can serve as a good analogy. On C6th that happens in too many places and the chords start sounding "mushy".
With ET or near ET... for two note harmonies, one just have to know the intervals and adjust with the bar where the rub gets too harsh. Most great players come to that conclusion no matter which tuning culture the follow anyways,

Bottom lime is: Universal is a very practical concept, but it requires a) accepting that they are NOT two separated tunings or "systems" but ONE, and be, good understanding of chords, inversions and substitutions so to not feel "limited".
D10 is "the standard" and each tuning treated separately, each neck can be tempered differently, there is more learning material around and one can load each "Side" up to the max.

Switching? To me getting used to 10 or 12 string from one to the other is like adding a 4 pick or switching from palm blocking to pick-blocking... a 3 month hard labor experience and after that one can start seeing the light at the end of the tunnel. Just if you do make the first switch, switch for good. Fold the old one away and DEDICATE yourself exclusively to the new setup. It's like stop smoking... just don't buy cigarettes!

... J-D.

[Slim Heilpern]

Excellent post JD!